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Thirty-three in a class of 8th graders  is a challenge! I had a similar situation (though with fewer students) with one of my 7th grade groups my first year as a teacher of middle school students. It helped me to analyze what was different about that group because my other classes all listened to me reasonably well, although not as well as I wanted them to. I realized that there was a group of about 7 ringleaders, and when I made it a point to talk with each of them privately about respectful behavior, leading in a positive way vs. following negatively, etc., things began to improve.

All my classes improved when I also realized that since I was new to the subject matter, I was not connecting the lessons to a bigger goal, so students didn't have any motivation beyond getting through that particular task. I also realized that the students were motivated by working with peers, and if I made listening during whole group instruction a requirement for partner work, they cooperated more.

When I remind a student of the expectations (and I've found that it is important to have rules  be clear and limited in number), and a student says others are talking too, I reply "I heard you." I have found it helpful to have a list of student names and just start marking names for losing participation points. I tell students they get so many points per period and they can keep them as long as they follow the rules. I often just mark names with a comment like "People are losing points for talking" and if students ask if they've lost any, I say, "If you are talking it is likely that I heard you." I let kids know that I might not catch everyone, but if I hear them, they lose points. At the end of a week, I let students know how many points they have. I have sometimes said to a student at the beginning of a class period when I greet them at the door, "You lost some points yesterday for talking. It's bringing your grade down. I hope you have a better day today." If said in a concerned and encouraging voice, this can be quite effective with some kids.

I also recommend that you read through other posts on this discussion board, even those that might not appear to be on this topic, as you might find suggestions that will trigger an idea that will work for you and your students.

I can see it.  Same thing has happened to me.  They sound like they are running things.  Sorry to hear you go through this. I would remind them that if you ask for quiet and they aren't behaving accordingly then they might get some consequences.  If everyone else is talking - so what ?  That's tough because it sounds like the ball of yarn has already unraveled, so to speak.  Once the genie is out of the bottle it is hard to get it back.

Couple of ideas off the top of my head.

1. greet em at door and have them get right down to opening activity.  No talking when they pass the door.  Make em practice it until it is perfect.  if they don't, then do it again.  Conventional wisdom says that if they push hard enough and you acquiesce they have learned they just need to push harder.

2. separate talkers as best you can by seating arrangement.

3. see if you can get them to do seat work quietly until they have shown they can handle class discussion.

4. It's too bad you risk the ire of parents if you keep whole class for part of lunch but if I was running things, they'd stay a bit.  Isn't their education the priority? 

5. ask yourself if the talking is really impeding learning process or does it mostly irritate you.  In my case, I found it irritated me and made my temper short but may not have been huge roadblock to learning process.

good luck

Unlike you, I was a high school geometry teacher for almost 30 years.  I really believe that junior high is probably tougher. Bless you in your endeavors.

In my last years of teaching, I used a lot of cooperative activities, including tests. I had to deal with more talking, but it was produtive talking. Students were usually grouped in 4's.  I usually did the grouping for daily lessons...allowed them to group themselves for projects...BUT I grouped for group testing. I put the students' names in order of average during that grading period (which could change daily).  For lessons, I would take a high level, low level, and 2 middle levels together. (Sometimes the low level was the speaker for the group.) For testing, however, the 4 would have similar averages; therefore, the grades really ended up being realistic.  I remember one student who came in the room and saw his name in a group of what he said was 'dumb kids'.  My response, "their average and yours is basically the same".  That child worked hard to get to a better group...and he made it. I actually was using the top levels to be the scribe or the instuctor in the group.  Some enjoyed, some did not. BUT most found that having group tests made it worth the change. The talking decreased and the enjoyment of learning did increase.  Those who refused to do group were put aside and were on their own.  Most eventually requested to be put in a group.  Some even became friends.  But above all, much was learned and the stress level lowered.

Good luck.

Grouping kids in groups of 4 or by topic is a really good idea. Kids that can't be quiet are able to work together to develop a topic and elect a spokesperson to present their topic to the class and listen to others.  Never discount peer presure.  Teens are pack animals and that works well.

I had forgotten that special ed kids are required to be in school till 21 or have an equilivant educational pgm. provided for them.

BTW, a yound special ed kid here was pepper sprayed when he climbed up on the teacher's high bookcase/closet and refused to come down,  Rhe district just paid out bug time for the police stupid intervention.

Hi - I understand and I know its frustrating.  I teach high school in a large inner city school and have had freshman classes very similar.  I will say that rewards can be much more successful that punishments, and I would try:

1. Offering some type of "cash", some form of currency, that students get when they are on task.  Let them trade these in for rewards like excused homework, computer time or a positive phone call home or Award Certificate.

2. Design a form and ask the talkative students to give themselves a check mark every time you redirect them.  Tell them there is no punishment, but that you want them to be responsible to check themselves.  Other students will remind them when to check their slip.  Then you can keep them and look for improvement.  ANY TIME you see a pattern trending positively, reward them.

3. If its one rough class and you have some extra time and some extra room, have a class chart.  Have students names, points earned for good behavior, and fun visuals for aspects of good behavior, i.e. a sun for being attentive, an ear for good listening, etc.  Give praise to all students who end the day with all their "images" still next to their name.  This is elementary but visual aids remind students what they're striving for.

Hope everything improves!!!

I had very good luck with an activity/management project called "Banana Split Party."  I did this activity with a fifth grade self contained class. Admittedly elementary misbehavior is nowhere near as intimidating as that of middle or high schoolers.  For what it's worth here it is.

 I cannot remember all the details but I think I can cover most of the esssentials.  It was a lot of work but it did bring about class cooperation and acceptable behavior over a period of several weeks. By then cooperation and acceptable behavior had become the norm.

I made a chart with each pupil's name on a line.  There was a column of names followed by columns headed as follows. Dish, Spoon, Banana, 1Scoop, 2 Scoops, 3, Scoops, Chocolate syrup, Whipped Cream, Cherry.

I made another chart with a column of their names and a column for each day of the week.

At the end of each day I placed a check mark on the line bearing the name of each student who had exhibited cooperative and acceptable behavior most of that day. They had to get a check mark on at least three days each week.    At the end of each week those students who had at least 3 check marks got a checkmark on one of the columns on the chart above.  For Example: a t he end of the first week all who had three or more checkmarks got a check in the Dish Column; at the end of the second week those with three or more checks got one in the Spoon column and so on.  If a student did not get three checks in a week then he did not get a check on the chart.  After several weeks some students had earned a dish, a spoon, a banana, etc. while others had only earned a dish or maybe a dish and a spoon.  As tiime passed I kept reminding those who had fallen behind that if they just got busy they would get a banana split with all but the cherry or the cherry and whipped cream if they just got busy and earned no less than three check marks each week.  Soon nearly every student in the class was earning 5 checkmarks a week.

At the end of the 9 weeks we had a Banana  Split Party one day during lunch.  In the end everyone got whatever they wanted on their banana split.  it was a wonderful activity and well worth the effort. 

I could not have done it alone.  My principal and the cafeteria staff were very helpful as was the mother of one student.  The next year we had a different principal who did not wish to be bothered with it and finally told me it was not good use of school time.

What an idiot principal he was!

I did something similar with a high school OCS class.  I had a pizza party where they (the class) had to earn toppings on a pizza over a six week period by earning more points than me during the course of each week.  The way they earned points was to adhere to a set of behaviors within a randomized timeframe throughout the class period.  If they broke the rules between random chimes I got a point, if they adhered to the rules between chimes they received a point. 

It was a wonderful way to have the class work together to maintain order and gain a sense of unity and group responsibility.  After proving they could behave appropriately by the end of the six weeks, I was able to remind them that they were capable of such behavior and held them to that higher standard based on the fact that they could.  An excellent character lesson too.

I agree that once things have gotten out of hand it is difficult to get things back on track. I also have 8th graders who are able to disrupt an entire class. I am able to give them lunch detentions. I find them more effective than after school detentions. They don't want to give up their time for socialization with their friends at lunch. I also will take a difficult student aside and ask them if I have ever treated them badly. When they say no, I ask them why they treat me badly by misbehaving in my class. I think classroom management is probably the most difficult aspect of teaching for many of us.

The problem with having different types of treats for good behavior is that they assume they should 'get something' whenever they do what they are supposed to do. By 8th grade I think they should behave the way they are supposed to just because it is the right thing to do.

Fortunately, we have great principals who work with us to keep things under control.

Phyllis,

Thanks for sharing your expereince with the Pizza.  Although it was often more time consuming and difficult I always found that building an atmosphere of desired behaivors was more effective than simply punishing or excluding those who caused trouble.  Of course a student who did something very likely to hurt someone was not tolerated.

I wish I'd thought of pizza when I was still teaching.

I teach middle school and have had the clone of your class. To get control back get a stopwatch. Hold it up when many are talking out. Any seconds after 10 I keep them after the bell. If they have 10 or less they get a point. 35 points and they get to bring food and watch a movie. One class I had to give them 15 seconds at first then reduced it to 10. This also lets you find the students who don't respond. Then they can be on a special list for special consequences(I used lunch detentions) and rewards( I used homework coupons and choosing their own partner) if necessary. Coupled with this must be lots of praise when they are on task and appropriate.

Hang in there. It's always tough when you have an overcrowded class with challenging group dynamics. Many of my most challenging classes were extremely social and often defiant. Although incentives and rewards systems were good, they often did not last as long in my experience, especially if the reward is not sustainable. It's tough to cough up money for pizza parties and pizza parties seemed to lose their awe after the first one, especially for eighth graders.

I went through a combination of most of the ideas presented, but the only thing that really allowed me to teach the challenging classes was tricking the students into wanting to know more about the topic. Making the content very relatable inherently built student interest and they ended up learning without knowing they were learning. I often would look at a series of lessons, list out my objectives, and then search for a relatable and VERY debatable issue that could tie the objectives together. Unfortunately, it's tough doing this type of planning and you'll find that sometimes your topics just aren't of interest to the students, but I think making the content relatable and implementing rewards systems may be a great combination.

On a side note, calling kids out in challenging classes never quite worked for me either. It was far easier to continue through a lesson (give a look though and make sure they are aware of your dissatisfaction), and then speak with the student or students privately, after getting the class started on an activity. It was a way to avoid escalating the situation. I found that students in my more challenging classes were more defensive and would lose control easily.

I think you should also consult your team and see if the behaviors are similar in other classes. Having kid talks to find out how other teachers are managing these students would be helpful. If there are students that are having consistent difficulties in classes, then the team should develop a plan to help the student stay on track. The cohesive effort of a team when working with a student provides the student structure and consistency.

Lastly, it does not hurt to ask for help, not just from the administrator, but from the counselors. Sometimes, there are just seriously bad combinations of students. Although this is a last resort, you should consult with the counselors to see if "key players" in your challenging class could be switched and spread out to some of your other periods. Sometimes the change of a single student can completely change the dynamic of a class. Good luck, and just keep trying new ideas. Positive phone calls home, getting students to volunteer with you to help clean or set up labs, inviting students to eat lunch, attending student events and sports events, parent phone calls and conferences- all of these things help build relationships with the students which slowly impacts student attitudes toward you (it's tough, but kids are dying for attention).

I seemed to always end up with at least one of these classes, and found that less was more.  The less I talked, the better.  Short statements, "stop", then if they respond, a hand motion.  The less they have to respond to, the better.  The kids know what they did and are just trying to pull you off task. 

If you get the "That's not fair" comment, respond that "Life isn't fair." or nothing, and move on.  You can't argue if there is no one to argue with.

I also found that physically moving over and standing by the chatters made a difference.  Stand behind them, next to them.  They don't want you that close and it won't take them long to figure out that if they are quiet, you leave them alone.  The flip side is they are looking for attention, and your proximity is satisfying the need.

Good luck!

The wonderful thing that can be taken from these many suggestions is that we can all look to see what may fit our own personality type and try that idea. 

Having taught 8th grade for 32 years I've tried many of the suggestions above. Time them in the work you assign. I was able to download a stopwatch and displayed it. Having work for students to do as soon as they come into the classroom with the stopwatch counting down is a great way to settle them.

They liked the clock. When working in  groups I would tell them they had x amount of time. Walking around the room and encouraging them to  get it done is important. If they are working well and you can see they need more time ask them how much longer or say " you have x extra minutes because your working well." YOu do have to grade the work and collect it every day.  Demonstrating the work is important and does count.

Making the work relevant is very important you did not mention what subject you taught, if we knew we might be able to give you  subject specific hints. good luck

Time....These are great suggestions, but recognize that the culture of your class is probably not going to change overnight, but it will improve over time if you are intentional about best practices.  Stick with it for the long haul for you and your students to reap benefits.  Its a marathon and the those who persevere win.

I have taught grades 5 through community college.  One thing I have found that works with my high school students is to weigh participation as 10% of the quarter's grade.  Each student starts at 80 (B-) and they gain or lose points in increments of 5; when a student reaches 100 I start another column with 80 and keep progressing.  The students will sometimes say "minus 5" when someone is misbehaving or ask if they get 5 for doing something well.  It's worked well for me for years.  It's interesting that some of my former students have even mentioned it on FB!

Please be VERY careful grouping students according to grades as suggested in one post.  I know this is something that sometimes works, but in our district it has become a confidentiality issue.  I know that students obviously know who is doing the best (and worst) in a class, but it cannot be instigated by the teacher.  

I have had those classes where the students try to be in control.  Sometimes I have had 2 sets of lesson plans-one for the classes that followed instructions, the other for the class that didn't.  Word got around that one class got to do something that was a really fun learning activity.  Questions were asked, and the other class was told, "well, I have to make other plans for this class because your behavior isn't up to speed."  I also talk individually to students about positive leadership, what they hope to do with their life, etc. and try to get them to see the relationship between their learning and the future.  The first week of class, I spend a lot of time not just establishing rules, but trying to get to know THEM.  They don't care what you know until they know you care.  We talk about their pet peeves about teachers, and I frequently nod and agree, but then explain why that might happen.  I tell them I will try not to do that.  Then I tell them my pet peeves and let them tell me why that might happen.  We talk...and I really work on getting them to raise their hand and not just blurt out or carry on their own conversations.  Sometimes I have to re-establish this bond after a break.  I also have posters about what my expectations are for group work, discussion, lab time, etc. (read the book CHAMPS) I am pretty much an affective teacher.  

I am currently reading a book, "Never Work Harder Than Your Students," that may have some really good info for you.  Also, Jim Fay's "Teaching With Love & Logic" may also help.  

Good luck!  This is not easy.  I wish there was a quick fix and there are some really good ideas from other teachers.  I have had students come back and apologize for their behavior.  

I am retired at this point, but I remember having a very difficult math group of 7th graders. The regular teacher was on sabbatical, the sub had a nervous breakdown after a quarter, and the principal asked me to switch my lab class with the math class to give the sub a break because "I was able to handle such kids" according to her. That put me under much pressure.

I had read something about food rewards and stashed it in my library. This is what I had to do with the 12 unruly students:

I handed out 10 play money dollar bills to each student. They were laying under their desk or on the floor because "they could learn better that way".

1st expectation was: they had to pick up the money from me, could then look into the big basket of treats at my desk, and had to sit on a chair to participate.

At first we started with 2 participants and I had to teach the lesson best I could. At the end of the first class I had not asked for any money back and let the 2 participants choose a treat on their way out.

Next day 3 more students asked to participate. I catered to those 5 students during our math lesson and disregarded the folks on the floor. I asked the 5 what actions would be fair to call for pay-back money to me. The 5 students suggested: not sitting at one's desk, talking out, not turning in homework. We agreed, ignoring the inappropriate comments from the students on the floor. I added a reward of a paper dollar for "productive participation".

We continued that way on Wed. and Thur. No more new participants in my game. At the end of Math on Thursday I announced that the 5 students could buy and eat treats on Friday with their remaining money from my classroom store (which I set up that night in one of my cuboards). When the inappropriate comments started towards the munching, I announced that any "non-participating and quiet student " could purchase a treat of my choice at the end of our class time. That cooled some down and at the end I was able to give 2 more students a treat. That concluded just one week.

To make a long tedious story short, it took 3 weeks to be able to teach to a group of students, sitting in their chairs and participating to some degree. We decided as a class after 3 weeks to have popcorn and a video on a Friday if all students had at least 3 dollars left by Thursday. There were 2 students who had blown their money and we voted to send those 2 to the library while we had the popcorn & video. The Principal picked those 2 up and escorted them to the library. (I had principal support throughout my experimental money sceme).

After 4 weeks we had a regular lesson, homework turned in, moneys going out and coming back to me, some Fridays just a video and other Frid. popcorn & video. The kids said a movie was not a movie if you didn't have popcorn with it. We often could only see 1/2 of the video one Friday and the 2nd half the following week.

I was able to give appropriate grades to the class at the end of the quarter. Food rewards, kind but firm attitude from the teacher, and support from the principal, turned out to work for these Middle Schoolers. It was hard work, but you might want to apply food rewards. It's worth it!

Ursel

Am I really reading teachers suggesting these students should get to earn a reward like a pizza party? Their behavior doesn't deserve a reward and the struggling educator certainly doesn't need to spend money on pizza or banana split treats for 33 misbehaving kids. Bribing kids with junk food to behave respectfully is not a good idea.  The reward is learning in a pleasant environment and studens don't need to think they're entitled to a party just because they sat quietly and behaved the way all students are expected to behave.  And tainting students' grades by including points that are based on behavior is not part of best practices and alter your grades so that they no longer truly reflect what a student knows and can do in the course. Behavior needs to always remain separate from the academic grade.

Instead, it's time to reestablish ground rules with this group. Discuss what a respectful classroom looks like, sounds like, and feels like. Write these down to have posted- using the students own words. Decide as a class what should happen when someone disrespects the learning environment. Work together to create classroom norms for how to behave and participate respectfully and include the group's chosen consequence for when the norms aren't followed. If there are a couple of "ring leader" students who compete or cooperate to be attention hogs, see if your admin can change one or two schedules and put them into a different hour class. Sometimes it takes physically changing the personalities that are in the room together to make long-lasting changes in the feel of the class period. Asking for administrative intervention is not a sign of weakness. You have 33 students' needs to meet in a short time.

I also agree with those that encourage the instructor to rethink ways to get the most students involved at the same time. Simulation activities, team challenges, interactive games, and hands on activities will naturally keep students engaged. Students who try to sabotage those fun learning experiences can be kept aside to fill out a worksheet with the textbook to learn the same curricular benchmarks and goals. Especially if there is an in-school suspension room or a place in the office where the student can be sent to work quietly on their own. and most 8th graders' currency is social time so consequences like lunch detention or losing precious passing time can work to encourage better decision making.