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How long has this problem been going on?  Have you asked the school counselor to come into your room and observe the behavior(s)?  Has she been written up before?  Did you inform your principal of this situation?  What is her academic history like?  Is she already in special education?  If so, what does her IEP say?  How long has she been at your school? 

If you want to look at some solid suggestions, read "Power Struggles - Successful Techniques for Educators" by Allen N. Mendler, Ph.D.  It's a small book with large print and is only 67 pages long.  It offers different types of scenarios.

If this student is trying to get out of class she will fight to stay in control of the situation.  Don't get into a power struggle with her.  You will lose.  You're not giving in to her but you are also not verbally fighting with her.  Stay cool at all times!

Another book to pick up good strategies in dealing with student like yours is "Teaching With Love and Logic-Taking Control of the Classroom" by Jim Fay and David Funk.  It's a larger size book but comes with explanations of human nature, how to use different words to address students, and scenarios of situations such as yours.

Hope this helps.

I think you are wise to consider options other than removing the student from the room. Sometimes you have no other choice, but this should be rare because the student comes back and you still have to figure out how to correct the behavior. Also I don't think a student should ever just leave the room but should instead be sent somewhere such as the office or another prearranged destination. I also think the office will deal with the arrival of a student better if they have a brief note from you. In the schools I have worked in, we had to send a note (sometimes a schoolwide form) and call (in the one school in which I had a classroom phone) to let them know to expect the student.

I have experienced a few incidents in which middle school students just could not stop being insubordinate and class could not continue, so I sent the student to the office. Before they returned to class, I conferenced with the student and the principal together so we could figure out how to redirect the student in a more effective way when they felt that loss of control. With mutual understanding and a clear plan in place, I never had to send the same student to the office more than once.

Building a trusting relationship with the student is key, and begins with greeting her every day at the classroom door. I have often been amazed at what a difference this makes. She also needs to have a more appropriate method for dealing with her frustration. Perhaps she is just trying to wield some power, but it is possible that she truly is confused, overwhelmed, frustrated, and is reacting in a way that works for her outside of school. Whatever the case, a plan created with her ahead of time will likely be far more effective than responding to her questions in front of the class when she is clearly being disrespectful.

I find it interesting that the term used in your question is "threw her out" because that terminology makes the choice the teacher's. Instead, it should be clear in the plan (or for that matter, the classroom rules) that the student who is insubordinate and does not respond to redirection has CHOSEN to leave the classroom and deal with an office referral.

I recommend that you read through some other topics on this discussion board. You might find strategies that will help you as you figure out how you are going to work with disrespectful students.

THank you for all your help Antonio and Kate.

Antonio: Well this problem has just began, this student started summer school with us. SHe was in my collegue's class. But in September she will be in my class. The counselor was not working during the summer, but if there is a problem with any of my student, I usually let her know. The principal was aware of the problem. And I believe she was IEP. The problem in our school is that these IEP students get mixed with regular students in our classroom.  For me sometimes is very frustrating because I have to go slow for them because they do not understand and I have to cover so much before the end of the school year. They will take the Regents exam (State exam) in June. In our school there is not a 'special education' teacher and some of these kids take medicine for ADD.

Inclusion of students with special needs in the general education classroom is pretty much standard fare these days. Federal law requires that students receive a free, appropriate, public education in the least restrictive environment in which they can learn successfully. The issue is often a disagreement about what is appropriate and what constitutes success for the individual student. That's a huge, often contentious discussion that I won't get into here, other than to say that the IEP meeting in which these decisions are made (often with pressure from the number crunchers to reduce the time the student is in more restrictive environments like a special education classroom) is very important.

It sounds like you are in a "full inclusion" school, but I can't imagine that your school has no special education teacher because each student with an IEP has to have a trained special education person who is responsible for making sure the IEP is correctly written and that progress on the student's goals is monitored and measured. Your school might not have a special ed. classroom or even a full time SPED teacher, but I don't know how they could meet federal requirements unless they have a SPED person on staff at least part-time.

That teacher's responsibility also includes helping general education teachers understand the student's specific needs and helping them with strategies that allow the student to be more successful. I encourage you to find out who this person is in your school and request assistance, even if you have to do so repeatedly before you get results. If this student and others like her in your classroom are not receiving the education to which they are entitled because you and your colleagues are not receiving the training/support you need to teach them, you have every right (and in my opinion responsibility) to advocate for the child.

Kate: This year I believe we have 32 IEP students coming in. I believe is the largest. This is out of ~100 students coming in.  I know that if the school accepts these kids, they will get some money, and my school is desperate for money (it is a private school)  so they will accept anyone.  Most of these students are either have slow learning, hyper , or get distracted so easily.  The only service I seen they have are Title 1 teachers for math and english. These students also get extra time for tests, midterms, finals and regents.

We have very few faculty (2 per department), this due because  the school is in need of money. Last year I had a class of 37 students (all mixed) I asked them if they could reduced it, but they didn't.  This year I asked if they could give me an honor class and no more than 30 students in a class.  I am  a science teacher and labs are very difficult with a class of 37. So I hope is better this year.  IEP students are manageaable if the class is about 20 students. This year they told me that I will have 4 classes of 9th graders and there is about 100-110 students coming in.

Hi Patty! I am a special educator in MD. While I teach early childhood in a public school [not secondary in a private school], I can COMPLETELY second Kate's response! If a student has an IEP, they MUST have a special education teacher to oversee/write it--period--that is the LAW. For each goal on all my students' IEPs, it asks "who will implement the goal?" and lists each teacher & specialist, often with the number of hours by week/month/year--this is why the documents are so long! I taught in an inclusion classroom @ my school for 3 years, and even though I was certified in general and special education, I had to find another general education teacher for each of my student's annual review IEP meetings--I was not allowed to 'double dip', even though I was/am credentialed, and often more experienced than ther teacher who would 'represent' gen ed at the meeting.

The tricky part of this is if these students have an actual IEP. If some of them just have some sort of 'plan', then they are not required to have special education oversight. Also, since you are a private school, there may be some disagareement between your local district & your school over who supervises the students.

Your school may be desperate for $$ now, but if they get sued for noncompliance with an IEP, they will REALLY be desperate.

Situations like yours are why inclusion has a bad reputation. If done properly, inclusion WORKS--but to do it properly requires MORE staff, time, and money than 'old-school' pull-out special ed.

Please continue to hang in there--you are in my thoughts & I a believe in you. :)

Everyone knows that this is a constant game that students play to avoid doing the work, seeking negative attention, and/or just to be seen by their peers, as having the upper hand in class.  Disrespectful students are hurting any possibility of true learning for all in the room.  Teachers are humans, and these issues are constantly draining our creative senses, and also causing others to miss out on grand opportunities for meaningful discussions in class.  It is so unfortunate that the general public fail to understand that too often it is the many student disturbances, from not only one, but often others join in, that are one of the main reason why students are not learning what is being TAUGHT by the teacher.  In most cases, disruptive students main objectives is to interrupt the entire learning environment, because they do not care about school, and are not being held accountable for their actions.  Until students' peers, administration and parents and the community at large, begin to understand that it is usually the students' behaviors and expectations, that are hindering academic achievement; we remain in a losing battle.  What can really be done to curtail individual behaviors in school?  I would like to one day see it where parents are actually held responsible and not just the teachers.  Is it the police officers fault that killers, drug dealers and illegal activities are taking over society?  No, I don't think so.  Just as it is not just the teachers fault that students are disrespectful!  Too often, I pray not to respond to rude, obnoxious and deviant children, because I like remaining free from any form of false accusations and possible litigations .  It is a shame that the teacher are no longer respected in society.  However, these same students memories will one day recall all that they used to do in school.  Unfortunately, it might just be too late for the nation's future.

In my school we have inclusion classrooms and we work through the co-teaching model. As the special education specialist I have been with content specialists in a variety of subject areas (Biology, Environmental Science, Algebra, Integrated Math, US History and English 9), [I have also taught in third, fourth, fifth, seventh and eighth grade and I ran a Structured Learning Classroom] and I know from experience that the same student will react differently in different classrooms based solely on these two things, teacher expectations and consistency in curriculum. 

I had, in fact, 14 students (all on IEPS) who attended two classes in the same semester whose behavior was day and night in the two rooms.  Since the subjects were Biology and Integrated Math you could argue that they might be better or worse in one subject or the other but you can not argue that time of day or day of the week was a factor because the rotation of the classes did not matter, nor did the day of the week. In one class, there were 18 students. In the other there were 25. In one class, the curriculum kept moving and each thing built upon the last. In the other, curriculum jumped all around, the students had too much unguided time, and expectations varied from day to day. (In case you were wondering they did much better in the Biology class with 25 students and a very demanding curriculum, then they did in the Math class with fewer students and less structure or hands-on work.)  Thankfully, that teacher no longer works in our high school.

So the question is: What are your expectations of students in your classroom?  For example, in all of my classrooms I tell students that they are not allowed to leave the classroom when directions are being given, and only one student is allowed to leave at a time. My co-teachers have varying expectations as to when students can leave (still respecting my expectation that no one will leave during directions) and what they have to do to leave (ask permission, get the pass and sign out, go at the beginning or end of class, or limit the times they are out of the room per week). All of these expectations are understood so the students act accordingly. Some of my co-teachers tell the student that they need to raise their hands to respond, others do not. However, in the classrooms that do not have this as an expectation, students are guided towards the correct time to be responding so it is not a shouting session. 

Another thing to consider for a student "who doesn't get it" that repeating something in the same manner doesn't mean she now gets it.  You probably should consider a behavior intervention plan (BIP) [or whatever your school calls these plans]. I would recommend that you sit with the student and develop this plan together. For example, the student might have other work that she could pull out or work on until you were able to come over to her and help her. You can agree on a signal so that you know when she needs help and she knows that you have seen her "cry for help". You can remind her quietly and when you are near her to raise her hand and not shout out when she doesn't understand something. Or you can remind her with a quiet hand signal of your finger to your lip from a distance. Then work on this lagging skill as a whole class skill if you have several students with the same issue.  It is important not to point her out as attention is attention whether it is positive or negative and you would be encouraging it to continue.

Last, you need to be sure that nothing else is going on with the child.  I had a student the other day who would not stop interrupting the class. Having been in my classes before and with the co-teacher before he knew our expectations and had generally followed them even though he struggled daily with anxiety and ADHD issues even after taking medication.  I was finally forced to take him out of the room and as I walked him to the office (a luxury sometimes of the second teacher in the room, other times we have the VP come get students but we never just send them to the hall, though I do bring students to the hall to have private discussions with them.). The student told me that both that co-teacher and his english teacher were giving him a hard time.  Since I knew that was not the nature of either of those teachers I sought out the English teacher. I found that the entire family had become homeless and were living in a variety of places (his brother posted the info on Facebook).  That explains a lot! Something to think about.

Hi,

It is best to handle this by stopping your class. Tell __?___ that she is being rude by yelling out and it is not appropriate.  Make sure you tell her that you want to help her and you may want to move towards her and answer her question on a one to one basis.  The class needs to know that her behavior is inappropriate

Reading the above reminds me of my job 2 years ago.  If you were a great poet and read your poems aloud,  people would applaud.  Now picture reading them while standing on a small innertube in a shark tank.  That is what education is increasingly becoming in this country.  Many will say  "But if you really value poetry, hang in there."  But at some point almost any of us will begin to realize that most of their energies are no longer focused on the poetry.  Sure classroom management is a part of teaching.  But how big?  I believe things are so bad at this point in many places that management of students in a class is a greater priority than actually teaching.

take back your classroom from false and unfounded accusations

See teacherframe.blogspot.com

It's a tough teaching world and had been since I started in 76.  It has gotten more difficult.  A principal recently asked me it "this was what I wanted to do.  We were always the role model.  Yhese kids are not the Sam as when we were young or in school."

The best way to handle this is to make sure students know that it is impolite and disruptive to yell things out.  The first time it happens you explain that to them.  You might even do that a couple of times.  When it happens again, especially if you feel it is a tactic to disrupt class, explain that you would gladly explain  it to her/him after the lesson is over or after school but you have to move on now or risk loosing the concentration of the class.  If students continue to do this on purpose there is little to do but ask the student not to interrupt and when they do ask them to report to the office or wait out side in the hallway until you are finished with the lesson.  Many times 9th graders are very good at doing these things to see what they can get away with and if they can get you distracted.  Some really don't understand and may never. Those students need more one on one time.

I've had students say, "You've confused me."  Sometimes I HAVE confused them!  However, usually, I say with a smile, "I see that you are confused."  Many students don't know how to state their feelings.  Actually, it probably took a lot of courage to even admit they didn't "get it."   Inappropriate remarks (short of personal attacks and foul language) can often be defused with a bit of humor.  Sometimes, parroting back the words in the same tone and gleam in the eye deescalates the situation immediately, lets the student hear how ridiculous it sounded and takes the pressure off the confused student. 

Next, I always go over that particular concept again feeling somewhat confident that there may be OTHER students who are confused.  Sometimes, I throw the question out to the class and ask for suggestions on their understanding of the concept that may help the student.  Enlist your students in the learning process.  If a smart aleck student says, "You're the teacher; teachers are supposed to know the answers," respond kindly that we all continue to learn...even teachers, and no one knows ALL the answers. 

I've had subs humiliate the students because of their own defensive, insecure egos while fending off confused students' statements, and they are never used in my classroom again.  If all else fails, I will have the student come up to my desk after the students are working independently and try once again to explain the concept. 

If a student is just playing with you (which is rarely the case), they will not enjoy the game when you don't rise to the bait.

Good luck!   M

When I was in the 11th Grade I took an industrial arts class inmechanical drawing.  I thought it was playtime rather than a serious cass and I began showing off and misbehving.  The teacher (in his first year) took me away from the other stuentsand said to me in a very calm and sincere tone.  "Mr. Cottingham, I do not speak disrespectfully to you.  I treat you with dignity.  It is very important to me that what happens in here is good for you.  I expect you to treat me with respect and dignity also.  Do you understand?"  I agreed that I understood and was asked, "Do you think we can get on with what we came here for?"

That class is one of my fondest high school memories.

I agree completely with you!  The parents and students MUST be held accountable so that teachers can actually teach.  It is a  PRIVILEDGE to get an education, not a right to be babysat until a certain age.  That accountablility has to start with a CLEAR set of common sense rules that need to be followed in the classroom with consequences clearly set out.  Children who have repeated infractions need to know that the ultimate consequence is that they will be sent somewhere else instead of being permitted to disrupt everyone.  Maybe this will curb much of the "enabled behavior" of so many of our dysfunctional adults who keep the cycle of dysfunction going.

The teacher in the private school will shortly see many paying parents ripping their well behaved, "Normal"kids out to send them to a school where they will be able to have small class sizes and get a better education because you won't be able to provide it with few resources and getting swamped by all these special needs.   Right now, parents who can and care around here leave the PS in droves to create waiting lists in all the decent private schools who DON'T accept everyone because they are honest and know that would be stupid move if they care about the quality of education being offered in the class or decent test scores.  They depend on financial support from middle class and above parents who are willing and able to afford the tuition.  These schools are not willing to lose many tuitions of well behaved, normal children to keep the one disruptive student in class.

It is time the union and PS leadership have an honest conversation about what is going on and how it is affecting the quality and start putting some "controls" in place that make expectations clear to EVERYONE who sends their kids to a public school.  Then there needs to be places where completely disruptive and disrespectful students can be sent.  In past years they were sent to reformatories.  Just the knowledge by students what could ultimately happen to them, curbed behavior so that the overall environment was controlled by the teacher and other adults in the place instead of hijacked by the mentally ill or spoiled brats.

We shouldn't "owe" anyone and education if they insist upon taking that right away from other students who are actually interested in learning.

Gee Helen,

I wish you would not hold back like that.  Tell us how you really feel.

I taught school for a very long time. Eighteen years of that long time were spent in a neighborhood that by any measure is high risk.  Low income, single parent homes in a "project", strung out mothers, incarcerated fathers, not a role model in sight.  The kids were emotionally needy, undisciplined, street smart, disrespectful, unmotivated.  I loved teachng there and I loved the kids. Not once did I ever wish to see them sent elsewhere because they made it hard for me to teach.

I am afraid I must disagree with you.  An education is a right, not a priviledge.  the children do not owe us their obedience, respect, or gratitude.  We have to earn it.  They are young, immature, untaught and cannot be truly accountable for who they are and where they come from.  We as adults and as teachers are accountable (to the children) for what we do.  The children did not ask to be there.  The teachers did.

If the children you teach are so difficult then for their sakes as well as your own get some help.

Richard,

I do not totally disagree with you.  I think you must be a very loving, giving person.  But on some points I do not agree.  I am glad you instinctively realized that position cannot give one all the respect necessary to run a classroom.  Having said that, there is a minimum amount of respect or civility that a teacher (and anyone else) deserves.  If you tell me I am supposed to teach x, y and z to people that aren't interested in it and show little common courtesy, then the best case scenario is to see that for the most part, the system is cumbersome and broken.  All the extra time I spend trying to sell my message to students who do not care is time I could have spent working with someone who did.  It is a form of abuse to put a student that actually wants to learn into a classroom with a bunch who are disruptive so they cannot get an education.  But this is what we have. 

Secondly, education is not a right.  I could probably point out some college grads who do not really have an education, just like you could tell me I'm a great baseball player by pointing to my participation trophy.  Theoretically, it is ACCESS to an education that is a right in this country.

Yes. It's true that the children did not ask to be there and we teachers did.  We are the adults.  Only in these modern countries do we find so many adults worried about stepping on the toes, rights of children when it comes to asking something of them.  They do have individual will.  They are not simply products of socialization.  Believing that they have no responsibility for the way their life turns out is really setting our society up for disaster.

I wish they could go work in the fields or shovel shit somewhere like kids in most countries do.  Then, they might not see school as something to wreck for everyone who does want to be there.

Wow!  Can we tell it's almost time for a holiday break?  There's truth all around in Richard's and Karl's comments.  Everyones' experiences are unique.  Hang in there, All.

My friend who is not a teacher but who is intereted in subbing in math, science and computer cience long term or what ever in the short term and has the adbamtage of being 6'3 and a large male, suggets that those kids that don't want to be in shhool be sent out to work, paid a dollar ot 2-5 an hour and let them gardem, pick up trash, pump gas, clean, or what ever minimum wage jobs are available and let them see what their lives would be like.  Let them experience not showing up on time, talking back or taking a day off.

I did get help and it was effective.  Luckily, my principal years ago agreed with me, that it was very unfair to the other 20+ students to have their English class hijacked by a poor unfortunate little girl who was born drug addicted to a drug addicted Mother.  Yes, I felt sorry for  her, but letting her continue by continuing paliative interventions that were clearly not working was not doing her or the other students a favor.  One of those students was an immigrant from Vietnam who really was eager to do the best possible he could in school and HIS parents were less than happy with the situation.  The disruptive student was removed from my class for the rest of the year and she was referred to psychological help that hopefully helped her.  We were certainly not equipped in our situation to help with such serious problems.

In another case, I had a ninth grade boy who was seriously disruptive and I did use some of these techniques and just finally came right out and asked him what would improve the situation for both of us as he obviously couldn't stand me and the feeling was fast becoming mutual.  He told me he wanted out of my class.  I told him I would get right on it and we could solve the problem that he didn't want to see my face every day.  I talked to a collegue that taught the same class and he had a girl that felt the same way.  We had a conference with both students and offered to swap places.  Both students were super happy.  I never had any more disruption from the "problem girl" that I took and he never had trouble with the guy.  At the end of the year, both students passed English and the guy actually came back and thanked me for what we did without placing blame.  It was an honest issue of the "mix" of kids we had and the "chemistry" not working for these kids and the teacher that they were assigned.

I am not saying to "give up" on kids but to honestly examine the problem and do something effective to solve it for everyone.  My rules were also not rigid.  If somebody needed extra time to complete a project, all they had to do was to talk to me before the due date and suggest an alternate date and/or plan that would work for both of us.  For most major projects, I also offered many options geared to different interest and ability levels.  People could always elect to either work in a group or individually.  If  all the options I could think to offer didn't appeal to students, they were welcome to plan their own and get approval from me.  Students actually felt more secure when I did post rules in the front of the room with clear consequences and assignments with clear expectations and clearly explained grading rubrics.

We also are touching upon an aspect of the real problem: students who would rather not be in a classroom.   They may prefer to actually work and should be given the option to do so.  I am from the rural Midwest and have met many fine people who have no patience for "wasting" time in a classroom but are great workers.  Their is no shame in manual labor.  I spent many summers doing that myself and found it a rewarding learning experience.  I was lucky as I felt the self esteem gained from actually performing skills as a child that were valued and needed.  My family was not wealthy and most of my friends were not either but we all respected the right of a teacher to teach in a classroom without our disruption.  The social climate made it a disgrace to misbehave and embarrass our parents by ending up the subject of small town gossip so we didn't.   The real controlling factor was the broad social expectations that  carried over into the school, regardless of who you were, what your family was like, or what ability you had or didn't.

Right now, I only substitute occasionally and I homeschool my two children at home.  My oldest child was born special needs w hich could have really affected her behavior and success in a classroom.   I took it upon myself as a parent to manage and shape her behavior and made sure that no group of children had to deal with her behavior detracting from their activity.  That took me being like an "individual aide" for years when she was in group situations.  Now she is able to participate fully in many group activities/classes but I have always made every teacher/leader aware of what conditions she needs for success.  If those conditions could not be met, the activity was not right for her, period, and she would not participate.  No blame, just being  proactive instead of reactive to problems.    She still requires a high degree of individualization in  her curricula which I provide but would not and could not expect from any school.  I realize that the resources it would take for a school to do that would take away from the needs of so many other kids and that certainly would not be right.     With our flexibility and situation, she is highly successful and happy and so is our family and other people who interact with either of my children.